#18: Find Your Flow with Derek Tate

TANIA COTTON
Welcome to the LifeWise Show where we explore the things in life that make you feel truly alive. Today, I'm with Derek Tate, who has spent over 35 years teaching people of all ages and abilities how to ski. He's also trained the trainers and has been an examiner of ski instructors for several national ski organizations. Derek has always been a passionate about how people learn, which led him to complete his master studies in Applied Positive Psychology.

He is now integrating his knowledge as a positive psychology practitioner and his experience and expertise in finding flow, into helping people find flow on the ski slopes and in other areas of their lives. His new passion for writing has already led him to write two books, and he regularly posts blogs for the Parallel Dreams Coaching Academy.

Derek and his wife, Shona, run the British Alpine Ski School in Saint Gervais and in Megève in France. When they're not skiing, Derek and Shona get taken for adventurous walks in the mountains by their two enormous Beauceron dogs; huge French Pyrenean Mountain Dogs, Wendy and Pan.

So welcome, Derek. Thank you for coming. There is very little snow at the moment so is it very challenging to help people find their flow in such sketchy conditions?

DEREK TATE
Well, first of all, thank you, Tania, it is really good to be here and to talk to you. And yes, so the season so far has been a little bit challenging. As you say, there hasn't been a lot of snow, but we've managed quite well.

TANIA COTTON
So, Derek, tell me, what made you fall in love with skiing and then teaching?

DEREK TATE
Well, falling in love with skiing, that probably came as far back as in school when I was in geography class and had a fascination with the Alps. And so that that was certainly part of it. And then I got the opportunity to go skiing when I was in school, and it really developed from there.

I've always been the type of person that when I find something that I enjoy, I tend to practice very regularly. So, I started skiing at our local artificial ski slope in Dublin and was skiing there five or six days a week. With that kind of practice I was getting fairly good, but obviously my passion was very much for the mountains.

And so, getting out to the Alps was always the goal, which obviously gradually took place as I left school, although my first port of call for teaching skiing was in the Scottish mountains. So that's more of a tough training ground. But the Alps came after that.

TANIA COTTON
Thank you. Yes, I can relate to this. I went on my first school trip and from then on in, my whole vision was to come and live in the mountains. And I certainly don't regret it. And you are clearly in your element when you are ski teaching.

Can you describe the value and benefits you believe people get from learning how to ski or mastering a physical activity or simply from just being in the mountains?

DEREK TATE
Definitely learning a new activity is always a good thing for people because you're challenging yourself to do something new. It's very easy for us to get stuck in our comfort zone and be seemingly happy there. But, you know, when we get outside of that comfort zone and challenge ourselves, it's good for us.

And so, sport is clearly an avenue, a way to challenge yourself, both learning the skill but also enjoying the environment that you can practice the sport in.

TANIA COTTON
So, you talk about getting out of your comfort zone. Does that involve fear? How can we judge where that limit of our comfort zone is? Where it's challenging in a good way and motivating us and allowing us to progress or where it may become a threat?

DEREK TATE
Yes, getting outside your comfort zone. It can be difficult to decide exactly how much to push yourself. And that's one of the skills of a good coach or teacher and to know when to push somebody in a sport like skiing. It's a very open sport, so we have a lot of different elements within the sport.

You have the environment, changing snow conditions, changing weather conditions and the challenge of the task you're doing as well. So, there's quite a few variables in the sport. There's a number of other sports that are quite open like that as well. So, there's a real skill in knowing how to challenge yourself the right amount.

First of all, people need to be able to focus attention on the task to stay present with the task. And if they can do that, then there is a much, much greater chance of actually developing their performance. Many times, people are getting distracted. Whether it's just - it could be something like fear, but it could just be distraction.

So, it's trying to get them comfortable so they can focus and stay with the task. There are lots of things we can work on to do that. It could be something as simple as getting them to focus on their breathing, for example, when they're skiing. It could also be just to make the task simple enough that they can focus on it. If it's over complicated, then that can be a real barrier to people tuning in and staying on task.

It depends where their skill level is as well. Are they actually still trying to grasp the movement patterns concerned or are they at a better skill level where they can focus more on the environment that they're in? Focusing on the environment is where we want to get people to, so that they can focus more externally rather than internally, so they can focus on the terrain, choose where they are skiing, so that they can focus on the equipment and less on themselves in a sense. And I think that holds true for many sports because if you can focus more externally, then you have greater awareness of what's going on around you so you're less worried about yourself and more able to tune into to where you are. You want to get to a point where they have an awareness of how their body is moving without having to focus too intensely on it. So, so one of the goals they're trying to get to, is what you might term more effortless attention.

TANIA COTTON
Where does this word flow come from and are there some definitions that can help us understand it? In a nutshell?

DEREK TATE
‘FLOW’ can be quite a confusing word because it can mean so many things to many people. So, when I talk about flow I tend to say that we are talking about ‘flow state’ because it's a mental state that people can actually achieve and get into. But as with anything that's mental, it's both mental and physical because you can’t separate the two.

So, in something like sport, getting into a flow state often coincides with participating in that sport and flow itself. As an area of psychology, it goes back to really the 1970’s and the person who is considered to be the father of flow psychology is Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. And for those who have not come across him or are scared of how to say his name, you can break it down into CHIK SENT ME HIGH. He wrote a number of books on the subject and lots of research through the seventies, eighties, nineties, etc. So, there's a lot of material out there on what flow is. A simple definition would be ‘it is a very intense engagement in an activity that is challenging’.

There are obviously more complex definitions than that, but I think the key element for me is that it's intense. The focus is on engagement and the activity that you're doing has to be challenging in some way, either mentally or physically or both.

TANIA COTTON
Certainly, if I'm skiing in powder or doing something where the skiing or the activity completely absorbs me, but it may not even be an activity, it may be some work I'm doing - suddenly you get absorbed into the task and it's like time passes by, you don't notice the time you have a deeper sense of concentration that you're not trying, and you are in a state of mind or a state of flow. There are different states of mind, aren't there?
One where you're very much in your head, you're thinking brain. And then the next level of awareness is then when you're more in your creative brain and you can start not to be judgmental, but really start to just be able to express yourself in a different way. What does flow feel like to you?

DEREK TATE
And I would agree with what you've said there. I mean, I think flow is moving beyond the thinking and it's getting into a state where you feel a heightened sense of awareness. So, you're totally aware of what you're doing, yet you're not having to think about how to do it. And so, it is an intense experience, but it's a very pleasurable experience as well.

TANIA COTTON
So, looking now the path to finding flow which is really where we want to help people take steps today - what are the keys? What do you think are the golden keys to going on that path, to being able to experience flow or to experience it more regularly for those who already are aware of that state?

DEREK TATE
Okay. So, there's there are some clear things that you can do if you like, foundations for flow. And I think if you meet these conditions, then there's, there's a much greater chance that you will find flow. There are no guarantees, but you can certainly increase the likelihood. And we've mentioned one already where we talked about being challenged.

It's a challenge-skills balance that we have to find. So, for your available skills, you're trying to just stretch those skills a little bit and by doing that, you can push your performance a little and stretch yourself. And so that's one of the key elements. A second element is to have clear goals as to what you're trying to achieve.

TANIA COTTON
Yes. So, the three keys or I know that you mentioned four keys to finding flow - in movement literacy, which is what I'm involved in and I'm very interested in, one of our number one challenges is to help people push themselves to find that the right level of challenge for their level of ability.

that's when you've been talking about getting to the edge of their comfort zone. So, this is that the first key for you, finding the right level of challenge for their level of ability? And does that in itself give people a focus? And because it's slightly challenging does it focus them in a very good way that brings them into a learning zone?

DEREK TATE
Yes, I think the fact that you are challenged is more likely to make you concentrate on what you're doing as long as that challenge isn't too much than you to stay on task. Then the second element is that focus, that attention that needs to be directed to the task and to nothing else. I think attention is something we can all get better at. We can train it as a skill through meditation, through mindfulness and there are various ways we can get better at staying focused on one activity at a time. And so that is the second element. So, we have that challenge - skills balance is the first, then the attention is the second. And having a clear goal is the third element. And, and in something like sports, where we have rules and goals, it's very easy to have a clear goal, a clear task that you're trying to achieve.

TANIA COTTON
I think this is something really interesting that you have hit on there - most of us are so distracted and most of us nowadays are so in our heads, in our little 5% conscious brain and just the way we're always picking up our phones and dealing with social media and the technical side of our lives and life has got so busy and fast that we are distracted.

So when I first learned to ski as a child, I became really aware, and it fascinated me, that this was the first time in my life, even at that point before, dare I say it, mobile phones had really even taken off, that it was the first time in my life I had found something where I had to completely concentrate on what I was doing and I didn't think about anything else.

And actually, that was really magical for me. I was very focused on what I was doing, but at the same time I really appreciated the environment I was in. So, It really makes sense to me that mindfulness and meditation would be very beneficial for any sport and that, in fact, learning about this as part of learning a sport is a really fun and beautiful way to practice it. It can then go on to have a very positive impact on the rest of our lives.

What's your experience of using mindfulness training with sport?

DEREK TATE
Yes, one of the beautiful things about skiing is the environment that we actually practice the sport in. So, you know, out here in the Alps, it's is just amazing. And it's what I often do with people - just get them to appreciate where they are, because sometimes they just don't take the time to actually look around them. They've come on a skiing trip or a skiing holiday and clearly one of the key things is to learn to ski but quite often people just want to have that opportunity to stand in and look at the scenery around them. And so, yes, there are many ways to be mindful within an environment like this, so you can focus on that, on the skiing at one point, but then you can have all the lift riding time where you can also take the time to just appreciate where you are.

But there's also the social side of the sport as well and actually getting people to enjoy communicating with each other and enjoy the learning experience together. So, you know, mindfulness is not just about paying attention on your own to what you're doing, but it's also about being mindful with other people as well. So yes, there's lots of opportunity to practice mindfulness and skiing.

TANIA COTTON
And we know what keeps people in sport as well. Generally, it is fun and friendship. For our mental health, social connection is probably the most key ingredient. You know, the longest running happiness project that has been done through four generations identified meaningful connections as the most important ingredient. And I've seen people grow as a family into this sport and enjoying it together.

And I've never seen that in quite the same way in any other sport. Have you experienced this as well?

DEREK TATE
Absolutely. Snow sports is perhaps one of the few times I've ever experienced a family with teenagers who still want to go away with mum and dad because in one sense, people can come away as a family, spend quality time together. But the sport allows people to come together yet they don't all have to ski.

Some could snowboard, they can spend time together, but also spend time apart. They can go off and ski on different runs and meet back at a certain time. So, it's definitely a holiday where children of all ages want to still come on a family holiday.

TANIA COTTON
I love what you've mentioned there about people coming for the skiing but they also really appreciate the environment and have lots of opportunity to do that. And that really fits with the sense of purpose that that you have shared in in your book, the sense of purpose that being a ski coach has given you. Can you share that with us? Because it's much bigger than just teaching people how to ski?

DEREK TATE
Yeah, it's, you know, skiing is one vehicle to people having a more fulfilling life. But for me, I enjoy just helping people have a nice time in the environment that we're in. So it's it's not just the sport because as you said at the outset of this, I've also worked a lot training and examining instructors. So you're taking them on a journey as well, a journey of development as they move through the instructor certification process they learn and they grow as individuals as well. And even if it's just a gap year course that they're doing, it has a major impact on how they how they approach the rest of their lives.

And I've seen that even with people that I've worked with as clients, as kids who've come through and skied with me, they've gone away and I've seen how it's really improved their outlook on life, their communication skills, their social interaction skills… So it's, I guess my purpose is just helping people change and grow and to enjoy being in the environments that we can be in, in the outdoors. So yes, it goes way beyond just the sport of skiing itself.

TANIA COTTON
Coming back to experiencing flow, you mentioned four key things. We need a clear goal; unambiguous feedback, which is your very good instruction that brings focus; the right level of challenge for their level of ability and mindfulness training.

We can train focus and if we train focus through mindfulness meditation, it means we are setting ourselves up for success to be able to more repeatedly have experiences of flow. Would that be a summary of those things that could lead us to experience flow? Is there anything you'd like to add to that?

DEREK TATE
Yes, I think that is a good summary and I don't think I talked too much about the feedback which is vital. People can actually get moment to moment feedback as they perform whatever the task it is. So, they can get better at getting feedback from their performance - again it’s skill that you can develop.

Some people can initially get quite a bit of external feedback from the coach or the instructor, but then they need to develop much heightened awareness themselves so that they can actually feel whether they're making progress and they often need things to measure against. In a sport like climbing it's pretty obvious, you know exactly whether you're achieving the climb with every single hold because if you get it wrong and you come off - so it's it can be the same in skiing. You know exactly whether the turn is working. Clearly, if you fall over, then something's not working. But it can be a lot more subtle than that as well. You need help to get better at that internal feedback. And the key is that you get that awareness to know from moment to moment how you're actually progressing.

TANIA COTTON
I find this as well when I'm teaching patients how to move, who have been injured or are rehabilitating or learning how to move differently in a way that will help. To move in a way that serves them rather than sabotages them. That is the first key, yes, I give them feedback and the mirror gives them visual feedback.

There lots of different types of external feedback, but ultimately the breakthrough is when they can feel the difference between what they were doing that wasn't serving them and then being able to demonstrate, ‘Oh, if I do it like this, then it enables me to do so much more’ or ‘not to feel my pain’ or ‘ have more energy to keep going’.

So that internal feedback, that's a really critical point, I think, to move from that reliance on external feedback to that internal feedback. And then that's a path to then coming out of your brain where you're thinking too much and into your body. Hopefully then you start to feel it. And then once you start to become more into your sensory self, really aware, feeling the movement more, then hopefully this will help you feel and experience that flow.

TANIA COTTON
So, Derek, take us through the things that could stop us from experiencing flow? Are there certain things that we need to be aware of that can really sabotage us, that can take that beautiful experience away from us?

DEREK TATE
I think one of the biggest things to stopping flow is overthinking and having a brain that's too busy. We've all probably had instruction or lessons where our brain gets to too many things going on, trying to think of several things at once. So that's a huge inhibitor to finding flow. The key point there is that we try to just focus on one thing at a time. In spite of what people say, we can't really focus on more than one thing at a time so that's one thing. Fear is clearly another one that gets in the way of people experiencing flow. So, if, if the challenge is too great or if the environment is such that people aren't comfortable then that will also definitely stop flow from happening.

TANIA COTTON
Rhythm in Greek means to flow. Do you ever use rhythm as a way of helping people overcome fear?

DEREK TATE
Yes. I think rhythm is definitely an important aspect of skiing because we're trying to make a series of linked turns, so any kind of rhythm will increase the likelihood of you getting into a flow state. You can, you can actually think about your breathing while you're skiing. Timing it with the turns that you're making can be quite useful so you kind of get the activity and your internal body working together.

Often, when you get them to focus on their breathing, they've just never thought about that before. And it's only then that they realized that maybe they were breathing too quickly, or even pausing or maybe not even breathing at all and holding their breath. I have actually got people to ski down a run and hold their breath and see how it feels and it's quite illuminating how bad it is. And then get them to breathe in time to the turns they're making and to breathe smoothly as well - so there is a nice smooth in and out and, and transition between the in and the out breath as well. So yeah, it can be really, really positive, but it also links to this whole idea that to get into a flow state, we want to be feeling a sense of being effortless.

And I think that sort of smooth breathing and effortless movement and effortless mental state link very well together.

TANIA COTTON
Yes, that beautiful, effortless, energy efficient movement that feels so good and it feels like your mind and body somehow come together and it just becomes right. It just feels right. You have to do the groundwork intellectually, and understand it first and then practice it and then practice the skills that then allow you to feel it and live it in your body?

You talk about four steps of learning and then your diamond model. Is this a way to help us understand this progression from when we first learn and it's all thinking and then we learn to embody the movement?

DEREK TATE
Yes. The diamond model that you refer to has four stages. It's based on skill acquisition models that are out there. So, you go through the first stage, knowledge, where we need to understand what we're doing. We need to get that knowledge. We need to, as you say, think it through and link that thinking through to the actual movements that we're making.

Then the second stage is the movement stage where we need to actually go through that motor learning of actually doing the movements in the right sequence at the right time. From there you can move into the performance where you actually test those movements out in in different ways. That's also where our attention can start to move from that internal focus and have the body working towards a more external focus when you actually are doing the activity. Then if you get through to that performance stage, there's more of a move through to the fourth stage which would be flow.

TANIA COTTON
Oh, that's beautiful. It’s nice to know that there is this journey that we can all go on and it's really worth persevering. You mentioned something in your book that I found very interesting - that when people come to you, they often want in a lesson for you to tell them what they're doing wrong. But you really turn that around, and say, ‘I like to build on people's strengths’. Why is this important? It sounds very powerful.

DEREK TATE
Yes. First of all, you know, we're all brought up to focus on weaknesses. And I think that is what happens in schools and in our upbringings. And we tend to always, even if we're doing things well, home in on the one area that's not going so well, whether that be within a subject at school or within a sport. Yet, focusing on what you do well is a much more positive way to go about things.

And you can actually improve what you can already do. I'll give you an example in skiing. If somebody is coming down making a series of linked turns, it's not uncommon for them to turn better one way than the other. They will always focus on the bad turn rather than the good turn. If they actually spend time focusing on what they're doing well on the good turn, they can often replicate that on the other side. It can be as simple as that. They become aware of why the thing is working one way, their turn to the right, whereas on their turn to the left, it's so much better to focus on the positive aspect, create that awareness.
And then replicate that on the other side.

TANIA COTTON
I love that example. And my father taught me that in life, falling is not failing, and if you get up again with enthusiasm you will keep going and you will keep progressing. And I think this whole notion that failure is part of success, not the opposite of success is is wonderful. And I feel skiing helps people understand that, because people expect to fall, that falling is part of learning, even to laugh about falling, to even enjoy as a group or with others, and to ‘let it go’ and get up again.

DEREK TATE
And I think you're right. A sport like skiing can help you change your thought process on that. And again, it's quite difficult for us with the way we're brought up because in one sense, we're told failing is such a good thing, youou can learn from failure. And yet on the other hand, if we do fail, it's seems such a bad thing.

So, yes, if you can get more comfortable with the idea of, as you say, falling and getting back up, enjoying it, and just accepting that we make mistakes and that mistakes are fine. If we don't make mistakes, we don't know what we have to change. So, you know, I wouldn't say this just for skiing but any sport, any movement, sport. You're going to go through a series of making errors and it's only as you learn through each of those errors how to how to get it right or how to make it better because in many cases there isn't a perfect right. It's just how to get a better.

TANIA COTTON
And that really leads us onto to the importance of us all developing our growth mindset about looking at what we might call failures, as an opportunity to learn. Can you talk to us a little bit about the importance ofdeveloping a growth mindset and is growth mindset a precursor to finding flow?

DEREK TATE
It certainly helps if you have a growth mindset because you're more likely to be able to take on challenges and accept that you're not always going to succeed straightaway and that you can learn from it. And so yes, having a growth mindset or a learning mindset and accepting that there's going to be ups and downs and bumps. It's not just going to be a smooth process where you simply get better all the time. I think that that's important. I think mindsets can be difficult to change, but you can change them and it depends on your upbringing, the environment you're in but it's still something that can be changed. So, if you have a growth mindset, then you're more likely to move into any kind of positive psychological state, including flow.

TANIA COTTON
And then if we have that growth mindset and we break through those barriers, is that how eventually we build resilience? There's a lot of talk about resilience, and you mentioned Angela Duckworth and her book Grit. Because some people get very put off by setbacks and yet other people can break through the challenges and move forwards. Are there some keys to us wanting to keep working at mastering an activity?

DEREK TATE
I think Angela Duckworth's definition of grit is ‘passion and perseverance for long term goals’. I think that's how she sums it up. We can develop our passions and we can develop our perseverance. We're not stuck as we are. I think that if we take that point of view, then, then there's much better chance of us becoming more resilient. We have to accept as well that it's not a straightforward journey where we just always succeed. I think that's one of the key aspects of positive psychology.

When positive psychology came on the scene around about 2000, it was very much interpreted as just being, you know, positive and happy and smiley faces and just seeing the good all the time. But it really came about as a reaction to psychology, normal psychology if you like, which was always looking at deficit and what's wrong with people.

Positive psychology was trying to turn that the other way around and say, ‘well let's look at what's right with people’. Positive psychology is very much about embracing both the positive and the negative and understanding that we do have ups and downs, but it's looking at how we can develop ourselves so that we flourish mentally and rather than just looking at us solving if we have a mental illness, it's not just about getting rid of the mental illness, it's actually about flourishing and moving beyond zero, if we want to call that.

TANIA COTTON
You talk about role models and the importance of role models. I mean, for me, role models, it's not just not about somebody being amazing at what they do. I think in the context of what we just talked about, I think it's become more popular for people to see role models as those who have had to really overcome health and performance challenges. And then they've been able to do things that are incredible or that they didn't believe was possible and that we didn't believe was possible. And that's very inspiring for us. So, talk to us about the importance of role models and also who have been your role models.

DEREK TATE
Yeah, I think role models are very important for people, you know, especially people growing up. They need to have people that they can look up to who have aspects of their character that they, they like and that they want to emulate. So yes, I think that's, that's vital. It's not just about if they're a particular athlete and they have a high level of skill, it's very much about their character as well and how they, how they deal with life.

I have a number of role models. In fact, one is from ski racing, the current racer Mikaela Shiffrin. She's an American ski racer and is definitely the greatest ski racer of all time at this point. Although she's got one more World Cup victory to get to equal Ingemar Stenmark. But I don't think that would be too far, far away. But I think the reason she is a role model is because of how she handles adversity. You know, she lost her father not long ago, and she also had a dreadful Winter Olympics where everything went wrong. But it's how she handled that. It's how she handled the press and how she was willing to give time to the media. How she handles the ups and the downs and with such good grace and just being there, giving the time to others and being supportive of others as well. So, she is certainly one role model.

Another role model is Glen Plake who is a famous extreme skier who came to fame in the 1980’s when they made a very famous ski movie and comedy called, The Blizzard of Ahhhhs. But again, his background, he comes from a difficult upbringing where skiing just gave him an avenue to be somebody. He says himself in interviews he would have ended up in jail if it wasn't for skiing. So he's become a real ambassador for snow sports, for lots of kids coming through as well. He is a great role model. So they are certainly two of my role models.

TANIA COTTON
I think something that inspires me about Glen Plake is the longevity of his career, how he looks after his body, and himself, and his mind. Actually, And I don't know how old he is now, but he skis at a very high level. But he's a very inspirational skier off-piste as well. He's what I call a very creative skier. I believe that he was an inspiration for off-piste and ‘all-mountain’ skiing?

DEREK TATE
And I think it's, it's the fact that he has fun with the sport. I mean, that's the key element and it's that he doesn't take it too seriously. Yes, he loves all the tricks and everything else. And he obviously has a personality and a demeaner to go with that. He was famous for his mohawk and even the clothes he would wear. He has a very outgoing personality and at the same time he's a very thoughtful person. Any time I've spoken to him or listen to his interviews, he's is definitely matured, as you say, he is taking a more care of his body. But yes, he's definitely inspirational in a number of ways.

TANIA COTTON
For me when I see people ski, there are certain skiers that inspire me or people who do different sports. I suppose because I look at people's body language a lot, mental images are really important. Do you think mental images help people come into their body and, and feel their way towards flow? Because it gives them a sense of where they want to go?

DEREK TATE
Yes, I think mental images are something that we are building all of the time. You know, we need to observe and gradually increasing our knowledge and understanding of how a sport works. And, so our mental image gradually becomes more sophisticated. But we need to look at a whole variety of performances from different people to develop that mental image. It's definitely something we need to do that can help us to perform better, to analyse both ourselves if we're watching our own performance or other people. It’s an important building block towards better performance and flow.

TANIA COTTON
So practice, we're never going to experience flow without practice. Yet the quality of our practice really matters. I would like us to bust this ‘10,000 Hour Rule’ because people often ask, ‘How long is it going to take?’ What would be your answer to that?

DEREK TATE
Yes, the ‘10,000 Hour Rule’. First of all, it actually comes from Anders Ericsson not Malcolm Gladwell or Matthew Syed, although they popularized it. But the research came from Anders Ericsson. If you read his research, what he's saying is that it takes a lot of quality practice in order to become good at anything, to have excellence in anything, whether that's music or sport. In fact, it was musicians that he did a lot of this is research on. So, whether it's 10,000 or more and doesn't really matter, the fact is you have to do a lot of practice to get to become expert. What's really important is the quality of that practice. He talked about deliberate practice and that really means the practice can't just be putting in the hours of doing something. It has to be done in a quality way, and you're actually better doing less with quality than doing lots of practice. It's something that you probably need a coach for, you need somebody who's monitoring you along the way. So there are specific things that constitute what deliberate practice is but the he key element is that it's proper quality practice rather than just repetition.

TANIA COTTON
And of course, for quality practice we will always benefit from expert instruction. And even the greatest sportsmen and women have a coach. So there are always, at any level, it seems, things that we can have our attention brought to and that we can focus on that will still give us those gains and still allow us to push the envelope.

DEREK TATE
Yes, I think we all need guidance, as you say the top-level sportspeople have coaches. It's quite different to having an instructor or a teacher. They're not there to teach you new skills as such, but they're there to guide you and to make sure that you are staying on track with what you're doing. So, having that other person - nowadays top level sportspeople have a whole entourage of people that help them perform well. So, it's not just a coach. But yes, I think that that's an important aspect of ensuring that the practice you're doing remains good quality.

TANIA COTTON
Derek, doo we need to be in a state of flow to perform well? Are flow and performance independent or interdependent?

DEREK TATE
I think flow is the gateway to high level performance. In reality you can perform to a high level without flow, but I think the whole experience is more rewarding and is more pleasurable and you're going to grow more from it if you can experience flow. So, if the two things happen together, then it's way, way better. It's going to be a much more intense, memorable and exciting experience. So yes, getting into flow can be a precursor to, I like to call it optimal performance rather than peak performance because it's something we want to sustain rather than just reach and then drop away. But yes, I would say it's the gateway to optimal performance. Yes, they can be independent, but I think the goal is to bring the two together.

TANIA COTTON
And if you were going to give our audience, say, three calls to action for example, or something to try; what would that be for them? To take that first step on that journey towards flow?

DEREK TATE
Continue do something that you love. If you're already involved in an outdoor activity or sport, continue doing it. One of the most important aspects of finding flow is that you're intrinsically motivated to do whatever you're doing. So, you've got to enjoy it. It comes back to us always using our strengths because we tend to do the things that we do well and that we get energy from, and they tend to be our strengths.

If we can do something that we are good at and that we enjoy then we're far more likely to find flow rather than doing something that we simply have to do. I think the next thing is, is challenge yourself within that activity, or learn a new activity and find something new that excites you. Challenging yourself is a hugely important part of finding flow. It's too easy for all of us to stay just doing the what we're used to, and we get stuck in a comfort zone. So, yes, I don't know if I gave you three?

TANIA COTTON
That's great. I think yes, if you have a passion, something you love to do, keep doing it. But perhaps push that envelope open beyond your comfort zone. The right level of challenge for your level of ability is something we all need to keep searching for. Yet never stop exploring. Always try or be prepared to try something new.

So my challenge to you all today is, is to this week or this month, to try something new and perhaps get some good instruction because that expert will help you focus on something that will enable you to experience more enjoyment from that activity and you may want to continue that activity in a way that you have never experienced it before.

Derek, I always ask all my guests these three questions, and that is, what is your favourite film, book and quote? Do you have a favourite film?

DEREK TATE
I do. And it'll surprise you because it's actually a very old film from 1956 and it's ‘High Society’ with Ben Crosby, Frank Sinatra and Grace Kelly.

TANIA COTTON
And why do you pick that one?

DEREK TATE
Well, I actually I like the swing jazz era. So, you know, it's obviously the music. Louis Armstrong and his band are a big feature in the movie as well. Maybe it’s just a movie I saw a few times when I was growing up. It's just got a just a nice feel to it. But yeah, I think the music is a big part of it.

TANIA COTTON
It sounds as if there is a lot of rhythm and flow in that. I'm definitely going to check it out. And so how about a book? Is there a book that you love? I'm sure there are quite a few, but what would be your top ones?

DEREK TATE
Yes, well, I suppose it depends whether you go for fiction or non-fiction. But if I go with non-fiction, it’s The Evolving Self by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. It's an old book now. It was the beginning of the nineties that it was written, and it did come after his first major book on Flow, which was just called ‘Flow’. It’s a much deeper look at how we develop ourselves in the wider context of life and how we can be better people. I think it is still very relevant book in today's society. And while ‘Flow’ is part of the book, it's just one part of the bigger picture.

TANIA COTTON
And Victor Frankl's ‘Life’s Search for Meaning’? Are there any nuggets that you got from that book that relate to the work that you do? I know we've talked about this book in the past and I think it is wonderful within the context of the subject.

DEREK TATE
Yes. I mean, Victor Frankl's work is, is very important. It's an important part of positive psychology as well. And I suppose especially modern positive psychology, because it brings across the idea that life has its ups and downs and that we have to find the positive even in the toughest of adversity. So yes, his work is, is hugely important.

It does actually bring me onto my quote that is attributed to him: ‘Between stimulus and response there is a space, and in that space is our power to choose a response, and in a response lies our growth and our freedom’. And while that is actually attributed to Victor Frankl, nobody has actually been able to find where he said it because it's not been found in any of his books or writings. But I guess it would sum up very much of what he would have said or the meaning behind what he believed and what he put across.

TANIA COTTON
Just give us that quote again, Derek, it is really nice.

DEREK TATE
Yes, It's ‘Between stimulus and response there is a space, and in that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom’. I think that when we're being more mindful, and we take time to be mindful, that's when we get this space and we can choose.

And I think a lot of us forget that we have choice over many aspects of our lives. And it's when we just react to things rather than responding to things that things don't go so well. Of course, there are times where we need to react quickly in a dangerous situation, for example, but in many, many aspects of life we need to actually pause and try to respond rather than react.

There was another famous motivational speaker called, Zig Ziglar, which is a funny name, I know. He is an American from the Deep South of America and he would say, ‘To respond is positive and to react is negative’. And he was very much saying a similar thing, I guess, to this quote from Victor Frankl.

TANIA COTTON
Yes. That brings me to one of my favourite words, which is that, we are all response-able. And I think that it's good to remind ourselves of that. It's one of those words that I think we need to put on our fridges. Is there anything else that comes to mind that you would like to share with the audience?

DEREK TATE
I think the big thing is just that, you know, spend time training the mental side of your existence, as it were. Mental skills are just as trainable as physical skills, and they're not something that are ‘woo-woo’ or to be scared of or to shy away from, you know, actually get involved and spend time training the mental side whether that's just how you talk to yourself, whether it's developing a better attitude or just learning to relax better by looking at the whole area of meditation and mindfulness.

There are so many aspects to training mental skills that can be done and, and if your mental skills are better, then, that in itself will give us a much greater chance of finding flow.

TANIA COTTON
If people want to get hold of you, find out more about what you do, wherecan they find out more about you? And if they want a lesson with you, is this possible?

DEREK TATE
Yes, it's always possible. You mentioned our ski school, BASS Chamonix, for which the website is www.BASSChamonix.com or www.britishskischool.com You can also get hold of me at www.DerekTateCoaching.com. My books, ‘Learn, Enjoy, Flow and Grow’ and ‘Six Steps to Training the Mind’ are available on Amazon under Derek N Tate or via https://www.paralleldreams.co.uk/derekntateauthor

TANIA COTTON
Derek, thank you so much. I look forward to seeing you out in nature up on the mountain very soon.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of The LifeWise Show. If you want a practical guide full of top tips on how to find your flow in sport and in life, Derek has written ‘Six Steps for Training the Mind’ in his new book.

In our next episode I will be in India on the banks of the river Ganga speaking to Dr Anuranjan Bist – an experienced psychiatrist who discovered, to his surprise, that we are the medicine and Yoga is mental health.

I look forward to seeing you there.